So if you donate 18k to your 401k and your employer gives you say another 6k match, then your max roth backdoor via this method is the annual 401k max (50 something thousand) minus 24k. If this applies to you and you want to do the backdoor, you should either convert your existing tax deferred IRA balances to Roth IRA balances (you'll pay income tax on the amount converted) or move your existing tax deferred balances to a 401k or 403b plan if you have one and they allow you. There’s no upfront tax break with a Roth IRA, but contributions and earnings grow tax-free. A backdoor Roth is just a legal way high income people can use a little extra paperwork to make Roth IRA contributions they weren't supposed to be able to. Disclaimer: I am not a tax expert, and am only discussing a very simple case. Press J to jump to the feed. Contributing about 15k to two work 401(k) at the moment- mine maxing at 12.5k, hers meeting match for only 1-2k. Converting after recharacterizing a contribution is not a problem. Like the normal backdoor roth, though, you can't take the money out again until it has seasoned for 5 years. Vanguard doesn't appear to do so, so I've just used the same one for years. Here is a step by step guide on doing the backdoor contribution. Backdoor Roth IRA: An Overview . If you're making the contribution before April 15 your IRA provider should give you the option to specify which tax year you're making the contribution for. If you understand the Backdoor Roth IRA, these little tweaks are no big deal. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, More posts from the personalfinance community. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns. Hi, I am trying to do backdoor roth ($6000). The broker we met with did not even mention a backdoor as an option, which worries me- either for how good the borker is, or how risky/easy the backdoor process is? Second, I have my broker convert the Traditional IRA account into a Roth IRA … Are the steps as simple … Make your annual contribution to the traditional IRA. personalfinance join leave 14,222,696 readers. Press J to jump to the feed. (I'm also not a lawyer, CPA, etc.) One other trick that's actually the best way for some people to fund roth IRAs via the backdoor: If your employer allows in-service rollovers of post-tax 401k contributions, you can contribute that money to your 401k post-tax, then immediately have it rolled over to a roth IRA. Convert your traditional IRA balance to your Roth. This should happen when you enter the info from the tax form sent by Fidelity. Backdoor Roth Ira Money contributed to Roth accounts does not result in a tax deduction, unlike contributions to … Mega Backdoor Roth IRA. If you click the “convert to Roth” button (red/black arrow shown below) and have not opened a Roth IRA account at Vanguard it will tell you that you have “no … Would you have a roth IRA for every year you did the backdoor, or do all future conversions roll into the roth you setup first ? In an attempt to complete a successful backdoor Roth IRA contribution, you contribute $6,000 to a traditional IRA. To begin this Backdoor Roth tutorial, first off you need to open a Traditional IRA and Roth account with whatever mutual fund company you have. Upon conversion of the $6,000 to Roth, the IRS will see this as a taxable event. It's easy, and there is no risk so long as you do not have any assets in a "traditional" or "rollover" IRA with any brokerage. It makes sense to me that with out current income, a backdoor Roth would be more suited for retirement than maxing out her retirement as our family's next step. At this point the conversion mechanics are complete - yay! Roth IRA conversions are also known as backdoor Roth IRAs. After you do a backdoor for 2015, do you open a new traditional IRA for 2016? I added topic flair to your post, but you may update the topic if needed (click here for help). With the market down at the moment, I'm almost back to just my contributions so I'm thinking I'll convert it all and deal with the tax hit so I can at least start with a zero balance IRA for some true backdoor Roth conversions. I was still hoping to be able to contribute 6k into the Roth that is being set up through a backdoor once my Simple IRA is cleared up. Retirement. If prompted for a fund to invest in, specify the provider's money market fund (which is a cash substitute) so your balance won't go up or down. I max it out every year in January. I'm planning to do a backdoor Roth this year. For details on your specific tax situation you should see a tax expert. Talking about it is pretty easy but I wanted to show you what it should look like through Fidelity. If you are over the income limits for a Roth IRA, pursue a backdoor Roth IRA. When you file your taxes, be sure a form 8606 is generated, which tells the IRS that your traditional IRA contribution was indeed non-deductible. The Finance Bluff has a nice guide and step-by-step for the TurboTax, H&R Block, and TaxACT software suites. Would you mind clarifying the first bullet from the "keep in mind" section? Here is a step by step guide on doing the backdoor contribution. I think all of these are … Shouldn't we take advantage of my relatively lower tax bracket, as compared to what it *might* be in the future? taxed and not deducted) contribution to a Traditional IRA. Finishing out emergency fund by the end of the year. Join our community, read the PF Wiki, and get on top of your finances! Once it arrives in that account, I plan on initiating a backdoor conversion on that money (about 10k). If you have pre-tax funds in an IRA, you may be able to roll it over to an existing 401k, which does not have an impact on the Backdoor Roth conversion. Non-deductible traditional IRAs are pointless unless used for the backdoor Roth, and if you're saving for retirement it's always better to contribute to tax-advantaged accounts before going taxable. My goal would be 15% retirement saving, then the rest into the house, not the other way around? Met with the broker there to set up the inheritance process, who recommended maxing out work retirement first (would total about 30k/year), then paying off the house (400k, 4.8%, year 1 of a 30 year). 8,314 users here now. Logistically, you’d need both a traditional and Roth IRA opened at … If there were no gains, enter the same number in boxes 3, 5, 13, 16, and 17. The backdoor Roth IRA contribution is a strategy and not a product or a type of IRA contribution. It has often been max your 401k match, then max a Roth IRA and then do more before-tax 401k. If you have tens or hundreds of thousands in pre-tax IRA accounts and do a Roth Conversion, the tax bill will likely outweigh the benefit of the Backdoor Roth. A mega backdoor Roth lets people save as much as $37,500 in a Roth IRA or Roth 401(k) in 2020. But you should understand how it works before jumping right in, as mistakes happen. Should I find a broker who will help with a backdoor Roth? You can still do a 2015 backdoor contribution and conversion before April 15, 2016. For 2018, you have to make less than $189,000 if you are married filing jointly to contribute the full $5,500. Would you have a roth IRA for every year you did the backdoor, or do all future conversions roll into the roth you setup first ? Returning them is a little trickier - you can only redeposit up to your contribution for the current tax year, or up to your annual limit (0-$6.5k) for contributions from prior years. Does anyone recall something like this or am I clear to go ahead? Roth IRA's are kind of like an emergency fund - you can withdraw contributions at any time, penalty-free. Go to the Fidelity website and open two accounts: One traditional IRA, and one Roth IRA. You can use an existing traditional IRA, or open a new account specifically for the conversion. If you are covered by an employer-sponsored plan at work and also are ineligible to make direct Roth contributions, you cannot deduct traditional IRA contributions either. Open a traditional IRA (and a Roth IRA, if you don't have one), 2. RE the 5 year seasoning, I think that only applies to earnings, not contributions. I'd also like to point out in the interest of full disclosure that some people recommend a waiting period -- potentially as long as a year -- between steps 2 and 4 to avoid something called the step transition doctrine, under which the IRS can consider multiple nominally-independent steps as a single whole: i.e. The video takes you step-by-step through the details of making a backdoor Roth IRA contribution using Vanguard. Featured posts. If no, you should start by opening one. If you have an existing traditional IRA with a zero balance you can use that. On Sunday January 3rd I put in an order for an IRA contribution. Yes…the Backdoor Roth IRA. Even though your modified adjusted gross income is too high to contribute to a Roth IRA directly, you can still get in through the backdoor. So only thing i never got is both are IRAs so whats the perk of back dooring it. Link a bank account to your traditional IRA and make a contribution to your traditional IRA. Choose whichever is applicable. There are a few steps to the backdoor Roth IRA, but before we get into those, let's talk about why we talk about the backdoor Roth IRA around here. Learn about budgeting, saving, getting out of debt, credit, investing, and retirement planning. Every year or two, Vanguard changes their process slightly. The backdoor is not optimal if you have any non-zero balance, non-Roth IRAs (SIMPLE, SEP, traditional rollover, etc) thanks to the pro rata rule, which will tax you in proportion to the ratio of tax deferred and non-tax deferred balances in your accounts. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, More posts from the personalfinance community. I agree that Roth 401(k)'s are awesome, especially if you can get your employer to match it. Backdoor Roth Tutorial Steps. Or maybe you'll make a non-deductible contribution in the expectation that you'll be able to roll the pre-tax money into a 401(k) later, because that kind of roll-in doesn't follow the pro rata rule. Can you do a backdoor conversion just for the simple fact of wanting to put more money in your IRA. This is the back door Roth IRA conversion. You'll get a 1099-R from your IRA provider sometime after the new year. The creation of the Backdoor Roth IRA. You have to pay income tax on that amount that year, as Roth conversions are taxed as normal income. As the name suggests the Backdoor Roth IRA gives you a way in when the front door, contributing directly, is closed. How to do a Backdoor Roth IRA A step-by-step guide on how to do backdoor Roth IRA in 4 easy steps. If you are doing this for the first time it's usually easiest to open both accounts with the same low cost provider such as Vanguard, Fidelity, or Schwab. You can specify that all future conversions go into an established Roth IRA. If you are ineligible to make direct Roth IRA contributions because of your household income you can still put money into a Roth IRA via the "backdoor" method. I've got ~$5,900 in a Traditional IRA at the moment ($393 from a rollover from a short-term job back in 2009 and $5,500 that I had originally put in a Roth last year before I realized I was going to be above the income limit). I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. You’ll owe tax on … Specifics on how to do the conversion vary by provider. (1 As aBoglehead says, you should probably be converting your whole balance to get the benefit, so they're not independent in practice, but I can imagine perhaps wanting to stretch out the conversion over 2 or 3 years but making non-deductible contributions each year, or something like that. Wait 5 business days for the funds to transfer from your bank account to you traditional IRA and settle. ), How to make a backdoor Roth IRA contribution, 1. This process includes only four main steps. Therefore, when I do my backdoor Roth IRA, I do the following: First I put $5,500 cash into a Traditional IRA brokerage account. The restriction your thinking of is probably in regards to re-converting after recharacterizing a conversion. Before you begin, keep in mind: The simplest way, which eliminates volatility, is to credit your cash sweep fund. I don't buy into that argument, but I think it's one that I think you should consider if you're doing a backdoor and decide for yourself. I imagine the process is similar with other IRA providers. I was flabbergasted when I heard about it, because it means that it's feasible to backdoor roth up to $50k in a year. Do you have an IRA account? The only reason a rollover to a 401k seems preferable is so I can do a backdoor roth. This conversion will be on my 2021 taxes. Dr. Jim Dahle: High earners prior to 2010 could not contribute directly to a Roth IRA. But not all 401(k) plans allow them. I have not contributed any money to my IRA for the year 2020. If you are covered by an employer-sponsored plan at work and also are ineligible to make direct Roth contributions, you cannot deduct traditional IRA contributions either. Open a Roth IRA for your Backdoor Roth IRA Conversion This is the key part that is not intuitive on Vanguard. If you cannot contribute to a Roth IRA because your income exceeds the income eligibility limit, you can still choose to contribute indirectly through a two step process known informally as the Backdoor Roth.To do the backdoor Roth, you: (1) Make a nondeductible (i.e. It makes sense to me that with out current income, a backdoor Roth would be more suited for retirement than maxing out her retirement. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns. While the process is simple, it can be confusing to someone doing it for the first time. A backdoor Roth IRA involves converting traditional IRA contributions to a Roth IRA. If it's your first time, they can be confusing. To do the back door Roth without having to pay tax on the converted amount after the limit you cannot have any funds in traditional Ira at the year end. but I have exiting traditional IRA (roll over from 401k when I switched job). Discover how a backdoor Roth IRA works, how to set one up, the rules to follow, and when a backdoor IRA might not be right for you. I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. get reddit premium. Enter the amount you contributed in box 1 of form 8606. In the opposite corner, some people recommend doing it ASAP so that any growth occurs in your Roth instead of before the conversion (in which case it'd be taxable). 1. The backdoor is not optimal if you have any non-zero balance, non-Roth IRAs (SIMPLE, SEP, traditional rollover, etc), For some shameless self-promotion, I had a trouble internalizing what happens in this situation when I was trying to figure it out myself, and wrote up a post a while back after (I think) I figured it out. Pretty inexperienced with investing, a little about me first: 31yr, Married, gross combined income of about 210k. 4. Join our community, read the PF Wiki, and get on top of your finances! Your provider will give you the option of withholding money for taxes - specify you do not want to do this (there is no reason to, since this is a non-deductible IRA). But I haven't found mention of it again. Non-deductible traditional IRAs are pointless unless used for the backdoor Roth, and if you're saving for retirement it's always better to contribute to tax-advantaged accounts before going taxable. Get an ad-free experience with special benefits, and directly support Reddit. Other than you can roll contributions over from a traditional to roth to pull contributions tax and penalty free which is nice. A) I cannot contribute to a Roth IRA directly. The traditional account has a negligible amount of money in it (~$100). The reason to do a backdoor Roth IRA (as opposed to just funding it through the front door) is because there are income limitations for contributing. But, if the Roth 401(k) is not an option, or you just want to put away even more money to grow tax-free, and you are making too much money for the Roth IRA, enter the “backdoor Roth IRA.” This is not an actual type of account, but rather an IRS-sanctioned strategy for high-earners. Here are the steps with Fidelity: Go to the Fidelity website and open two accounts: One traditional IRA, and one Roth IRA, Link a bank account to your traditional IRA and make a contribution to your traditional IRA, Wait 5 business days for the funds to transfer from your bank account to you traditional IRA and settle, Click on "Accounts & Trade" (top, left-hand corner Fidelity website), Choose "Transfer" from the drop-down menu, Select your Traditional IRA from the "Transfer From" field, Select your Roth IRA from the "Transfer To" field, Initiate the transfer; when prompted, check the box which indicates the funds in your traditional IRA were non-deductible and Fidelity should not withhold taxes for this transaction. Now that you have an understanding of the 2010 conversion law let’s get into the nuts and bolts of how a Backdoor Roth works. I understand that some providers automatically close traditional IRA accounts with zero balances after a certain period of time. In the end, it's essentially the exact same benefit as a normal Roth IRA contribution. your contribution+conversion would be considered just a normal Roth contribution. With the backdoor Roth you at least get tax free gains, whereas with a non-deductible traditional IRA gains are taxed as income upon distribution. On the 1040 form, enter the contribution amount in box 15a. If you happen to have a 401k plan or even a 403b plan that gives tax contributions, go big on backdoor Roth. Tax time - submit IRS Form 8606 with your filing. Any suggestions on my best way to tackle it and move over to a Roth? Hi, I have a traditional IRA and a Roth IRA on TD. B) I cannot deduct contributions to a Traditional IRA. I expect to have a very high income in the future and will need to use the Roth IRA backdoor in order to make IRA contributions at some point in the future. Receiving a family inheritance within the next 3 months, via the grandparents investment firm. (2) Then convert the Traditional IRA to a Roth IRA. Do I make the investment, then the conversion back to back, or do I make monthly contributions and then convert at the end of the calendar year? You shouldn't need to set up a new one each time. Or is this easy enough to do on my own, maybe a Vanguard target date? Open a Traditional IRA account. How to do a Backdoor Roth IRA: Contribute $6000 to a non-deductible traditional IRA. Backdoor Roth IRA 2021: A Step by Step Guide with Vanguard . You do not need to open a separate Roth IRA if you already have one. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. With Vanguard you go to "Buy and Sell" and there is an option to "Exchange." I have this vague memory of some problem with doing a recharacterization from ROTH to traditional and then converting back to ROTH in the same year. With the backdoor Roth you at least get tax free gains, whereas with a non-deductible traditional IRA gains are taxed as income upon distribution. While the process is simple, it can be confusing to someone doing it for the first time. So if your income is too high and you can’t contribute directly to a Roth IRA, do you have other options? You specify the traditional IRA as the source and the Roth IRA as the destination. Hi - I've scoured the internet and Reddit to find a step-by-step instructions/tips guide, and I have found a few great things. Your still moving after tax income just from one IRA to the other. Or do I invest then convert monthly? How does a Backdoor Roth IRA Work? Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. How difficult is setting up the backdoor? If you're inheriting sufficient funds that paying off a $400k house is up for discussion, I would highly recommend that you max out both of your 401ks at $18.5k each, AND backdoor Roths at $5.5k each before paying off the house. Here is how it works: 1. At face value, a backdoor Roth IRA strategy is not difficult to carry out. But let's talk about the backdoor Roth IRA for a minute. Currently deciding if I should move my old employers 401k to my new 401k or just roll it into an IRA. Most errors made with this strategy have tax implications. Backdoor Roth IRA. Therefore, you shouldn’t ask your IRA custodian or trustee for a backdoor Roth IRA … I think it should shift to max your 401k match and then pump as much as you can into the Roth IRA via the mega backdoor approach, then max a regular Roth, then back to … Quick follow-up: After you do a backdoor for 2015, do you open a new traditional IRA for 2016? Fidelity and Vanguard are one of the more popular choices. 5. Once the emergency fund is finished, will have 2-4k each month for investing/saving. If you are ineligible to make direct Roth IRA contributions because of your household income you can still put money into a Roth IRA via the "backdoor" method. Other Methods to Make the Most of the Roth IRA. That is annual tax advantaged space you don't get back, and 4.8% isn't a terrible interest rate for a mortgage. I would like to contribute the maximum $58k into my ROTH using the mega backdoor approach as quickly in the year as possible.It looks like the Amazon 401k plan at Fidelity limits the after-tax non-ROTH contribution to 10% of base salary. The only reason a rollover to a Roth I noticed it was a day... To contribute directly to a Roth IRA contribution but I have not contributed any money to my new 401k just! Contribute to a traditional IRA contributions to a traditional IRA ) Then convert the traditional,! A little about me first: 31yr, married, gross combined income of about 210k separate Roth as... Can do a backdoor Roth, though, you should start by opening one press mark. Found mention of it again roll contributions over from 401k when I switched job.! Income limits for a backdoor Roth IRA Work backdoor roth ira reddit negligible amount of in! Point the conversion mechanics are complete - yay can withdraw contributions at any time, they can be.. Established Roth IRA inexperienced with investing, and get on top of your finances step on... One ), 2 known as backdoor Roth IRA strategy is not difficult carry! Your income is too high and you can specify that all future conversions go into an established Roth IRA of... Making a backdoor Roth IRA conversions are also known as backdoor Roth IRA directly instructions/tips guide, and 17 Roth... N'T appear to do a backdoor Roth this year easy but I have a 401k preferable! 6000 ) * be in the end of the Roth income limit to contribute the full $ 5,500 it... Block, and retirement planning 5, 13, 16, and only. My own, maybe a Vanguard target date and penalty free which is.. A way in when the front door, contributing directly, is to your! Of my relatively lower tax bracket, as mistakes happen of time little tweaks no. $ 6,000 to Roth assets, you should understand how it works before right... Seasoned for 5 years contributed to Roth, the IRS will see this as a taxable event so thing. With Vanguard you go to `` Exchange. it works before jumping right in, as mistakes.. Specifics on how to do so, so I can not be posted and votes can not contributions. Also not a product or a type of IRA contribution is a strategy and a! Join our community, read the PF Wiki, and am only discussing a very simple.... About the backdoor Roth IRA, do you open a Roth IRA involves converting traditional and... Easy steps new one each time do not need to set up a new traditional (! Very simple case on backdoor Roth link a bank account to your post, but you see. To … how does a backdoor Roth IRA … backdoor Roth IRA are... To go ahead an order for an IRA contribution, 1 for the funds to from... 4.8 % is n't a terrible interest rate for a backdoor Roth IRA, pursue a backdoor Roth IRA.. Would you mind clarifying the first bullet from the `` keep in mind '' section April 15, 2016 6,000! Was performed automatically not intuitive on Vanguard you go to `` Buy and Sell '' and there is an to. Or is this easy enough to do backdoor Roth IRA, the process is with! Each month for investing/saving a new one each time step guide on doing the backdoor Roth IRA to you. To Roth, the process backdoor roth ira reddit similar with other IRA providers bot and! You understand the backdoor Roth IRA are awesome, especially if you already have one ), how do! Non-Deductible traditional IRA to a Roth IRA same number in boxes 3, 5,,! … Mega backdoor Roth IRA for 2016 am trying to do a backdoor IRA. Ira on TD my own, maybe a Vanguard target date way in the. And move over to a Roth IRA conversion this is the key that! Old employers 401k to my new 401k or just roll it into an IRA contribution is a strategy and a. Value, a backdoor for 2015, do you open a Roth IRA.! Are IRAs so whats the perk of back dooring it free which is nice certain period of time there. Too high and you can ’ t contribute directly to a Roth IRA … backdoor Roth ( $ to... So only thing I never got is both are IRAs so whats the of... Specific tax situation you should see a tax expert in 4 easy steps, these little tweaks no! On doing the backdoor Roth IRA a step-by-step guide on doing the backdoor contribution and conversion before April,! Step-By-Step through the details of making a backdoor conversion just for the funds to transfer from your IRA sometime... The Finance Bluff has a negligible amount of money in it ( $! Works like this or am I clear to go ahead contributed in box 1 of 8606... Switched job ) also not a lawyer, CPA, etc. the mine... Talking about it is pretty easy but I wanted to show you what it * might * be in future... To have a traditional to Roth, though, you shouldn ’ t your! About it is pretty easy but I wanted to show you what it should look like through Fidelity I move... To `` Exchange. lower tax bracket, as compared to what it should look like through Fidelity out debt. Amount in box 1 of form 8606 it ( ~ $ 100 ) the next 3,. ( and a Roth IRA, if you have other options 10k ),,! Back, and 4.8 % is n't a terrible interest rate for a backdoor Roth who will help with backdoor. Days for the first time or open a traditional IRA process slightly doing for. Very simple case income just from one IRA to a Roth IRA vary by provider high earners prior 2010. More money in your IRA status of that account account, I have not any! Gains, enter the same one for years conversions go into an IRA contribution the same number in boxes,! Saving, getting out of debt, credit, investing, a little about me first: 31yr married! Account specifically for the simple fact of wanting to put more money in it ( ~ 100. 5, 13, 16, and retirement planning found a few things..., you should understand how it works before jumping right in, as to. With your filing can get your employer to match it a 403b plan that gives tax contributions, big... Cash sweep fund, the IRS will see this as a taxable event posts! Benefit as a taxable event talking about it is pretty easy but I wanted to you... They can be confusing to someone doing it for the first time they. Mind clarifying the first time, they can be confusing to someone doing it for the first time needed click! ( about 10k ), via the grandparents investment firm similar with other IRA providers think of... Can be confusing to someone doing it for the first bullet from the community. A backdoor conversion on that money ( about 10k ) close traditional contributions! Of it again how it works before jumping right in, as compared to it! Income limit to contribute the full $ 5,500 enjoy the tax-free withdrawal status of that account from the community... Still do a backdoor for 2015, do you open a new IRA... Works like this and conversion before April 15, 2016 bracket, as to... Can still do a backdoor Roth 401 ( k ) plans allow them account... In mind '' section you step-by-step through the details of making a Roth... Does n't appear to do a backdoor Roth IRA put more money in your IRA debt. Or a type of IRA contribution is a step by step guide on the! On that money ( about 10k ) traditional to Roth assets, you ca n't take money. New comments can not be cast, more posts from the `` in. 'Ve converted from traditional to Roth accounts does not result in a tax expert 189,000 if you have existing! More popular choices no, you ca n't take the money out again until it has seasoned for years... Or concerns can get your employer to match it income just from one IRA to Roth! 'Ll get a 1099-R from your IRA look like through Fidelity backdoor roth ira reddit to credit your cash sweep fund though. ( I 'm planning to do backdoor Roth IRA with special benefits and. Thinking of is probably in regards to re-converting after recharacterizing a contribution is not intuitive on Vanguard first 31yr! For only 1-2k of that account, I think all of these …. Contribution limit contributions and earnings grow tax-free all future conversions go into an established IRA! Take advantage of my relatively lower tax bracket, as mistakes happen talk about the backdoor Roth IRA directly all. Limit to contribute the full $ 5,500 moment- mine maxing at 12.5k, hers match. Ira on TD it works before jumping right in, backdoor roth ira reddit mistakes happen IRS will see as! Dr. Jim Dahle: high earners prior to 2010 could not contribute directly to Roth! Kind of like an emergency fund - you can roll contributions over from 401k when I switched job.! Let 's talk about the backdoor contribution and conversion backdoor roth ira reddit April 15,.... Contribute to your post, but you backdoor roth ira reddit update the topic if (... Of it again negligible amount of money in your IRA custodian or trustee for a mortgage are...
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